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	<title>Comments on: Are Audiophiles Really This Dumb?</title>
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	<link>http://isnoop.net/blog/2006/08/27/are-audiophiles-really-this-dumb/</link>
	<description>It's a Doozy!</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 20:24:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://isnoop.net/blog/2006/08/27/are-audiophiles-really-this-dumb/#comment-17833</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Nov 2006 00:34:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://isnoop.net/blog/2006/08/27/are-audiophiles-really-this-dumb/#comment-17833</guid>
		<description>I use Shakti Stones and they make an audible difference.  You should try something before you criticize it.  If your system is not high end then you probably won't hear the difference....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I use Shakti Stones and they make an audible difference.  You should try something before you criticize it.  If your system is not high end then you probably won&#8217;t hear the difference&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Hodgkinson</title>
		<link>http://isnoop.net/blog/2006/08/27/are-audiophiles-really-this-dumb/#comment-12818</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Hodgkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Oct 2006 07:34:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://isnoop.net/blog/2006/08/27/are-audiophiles-really-this-dumb/#comment-12818</guid>
		<description>Hello All 
I have enjoyed reading the comment, and just one small thing comes to mind as far as the audio equipment is concerned if you have the MONEY to buy that sort of equipment and you get enjoyment out of owning it and just may-be showing it off to others, (Look at what I can afford (One-upmanship) or may be even listening to the vinyl that you playâ€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..then more power to your elbow.
Because in buying it you have put Food on the table and Gas in the tanks of cars of a lot of people who help to make and sell the equipment, and they have spent the Money that they have earned on Stuff that someone else thinks is over-priced or a waste of time, and they in turn have done the same, and just maybe a little has worked it way down into yours pockets and mine, and just think what we did with the money that we got. 
Now to the subject of whether CD or Vinyl is better, I like MUSIC and being of an age which allowed me to grow up at a time in which the technology moved from a cats-whisker Crystal-set wireless to internet-radio, all I can said is I wish that all the LPâ€™s 33,1/3rpm plus the 45rpm vinyl and that I have owned, had not over the time that I had owned and played them, had not so deteriorate with cracks pops and scratches to make almost if not unbearable to listen to. But still worth OWNING which I think is the difference between the two, One you own and the other you play.
That comment is in it self, praises the CD, But I am now in the process in moving my CD and Vinyl to MP3 for my iPod, that means I can carry my Ludwig van and my Billy Joel around with me. So which league am I in?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello All<br />
I have enjoyed reading the comment, and just one small thing comes to mind as far as the audio equipment is concerned if you have the MONEY to buy that sort of equipment and you get enjoyment out of owning it and just may-be showing it off to others, (Look at what I can afford (One-upmanship) or may be even listening to the vinyl that you playâ€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..then more power to your elbow.<br />
Because in buying it you have put Food on the table and Gas in the tanks of cars of a lot of people who help to make and sell the equipment, and they have spent the Money that they have earned on Stuff that someone else thinks is over-priced or a waste of time, and they in turn have done the same, and just maybe a little has worked it way down into yours pockets and mine, and just think what we did with the money that we got.<br />
Now to the subject of whether CD or Vinyl is better, I like MUSIC and being of an age which allowed me to grow up at a time in which the technology moved from a cats-whisker Crystal-set wireless to internet-radio, all I can said is I wish that all the LPâ€™s 33,1/3rpm plus the 45rpm vinyl and that I have owned, had not over the time that I had owned and played them, had not so deteriorate with cracks pops and scratches to make almost if not unbearable to listen to. But still worth OWNING which I think is the difference between the two, One you own and the other you play.<br />
That comment is in it self, praises the CD, But I am now in the process in moving my CD and Vinyl to MP3 for my iPod, that means I can carry my Ludwig van and my Billy Joel around with me. So which league am I in?</p>
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		<title>By: Pierce Wetter</title>
		<link>http://isnoop.net/blog/2006/08/27/are-audiophiles-really-this-dumb/#comment-8644</link>
		<dc:creator>Pierce Wetter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Sep 2006 00:13:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://isnoop.net/blog/2006/08/27/are-audiophiles-really-this-dumb/#comment-8644</guid>
		<description>Er, you're both wrong.

Digital reproduction of sound produces artifacts. 

Analog reproduction of sound produces artifacts.

A "square wave" has infinite frequency so those frequencies have to be filtered off when converting the digital signal to analog. 

CDs can be subject to bad filtering. The best case is to listen to a CD of piano music on a number of CD players. You'll be shocked at how bad some of them sound. Whenever I buy a CD player, I always brings some sort of piano music to the store to listen to. If I do that, $ for $, a digital system will outperform the equivalent analog system. 

The key component is that all digital systems need some analog filtering, because our ears "ring" in the same way that analog filters "ring", so we don't hear that filtering. Too many CD player designers have overdone the digital filtering thing, so you end up with digital ringing, which can be quite cold, annoying and distinctive. 

Analog reproduction of sound has its own problems, and its own filtering. 

Same thing with tubes vs. transistors. Its not that transistors don't distort when amplifying, its that they don't distort in the right "pleasant" ways. So guitar players have to buy vacuum tubes made in Russia. 

So weirdly, most guitar amps these days have tubes for "color", then transistors for volume...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Er, you&#8217;re both wrong.</p>
<p>Digital reproduction of sound produces artifacts. </p>
<p>Analog reproduction of sound produces artifacts.</p>
<p>A &#8220;square wave&#8221; has infinite frequency so those frequencies have to be filtered off when converting the digital signal to analog. </p>
<p>CDs can be subject to bad filtering. The best case is to listen to a CD of piano music on a number of CD players. You&#8217;ll be shocked at how bad some of them sound. Whenever I buy a CD player, I always brings some sort of piano music to the store to listen to. If I do that, $ for $, a digital system will outperform the equivalent analog system. </p>
<p>The key component is that all digital systems need some analog filtering, because our ears &#8220;ring&#8221; in the same way that analog filters &#8220;ring&#8221;, so we don&#8217;t hear that filtering. Too many CD player designers have overdone the digital filtering thing, so you end up with digital ringing, which can be quite cold, annoying and distinctive. </p>
<p>Analog reproduction of sound has its own problems, and its own filtering. </p>
<p>Same thing with tubes vs. transistors. Its not that transistors don&#8217;t distort when amplifying, its that they don&#8217;t distort in the right &#8220;pleasant&#8221; ways. So guitar players have to buy vacuum tubes made in Russia. </p>
<p>So weirdly, most guitar amps these days have tubes for &#8220;color&#8221;, then transistors for volume&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://isnoop.net/blog/2006/08/27/are-audiophiles-really-this-dumb/#comment-6654</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Sep 2006 00:03:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://isnoop.net/blog/2006/08/27/are-audiophiles-really-this-dumb/#comment-6654</guid>
		<description>Brad, that is quite a compelling and well written argument, which I enjoyed reading. As I said, I'm no audiophile, nor am I an audio expert. But I presume the people who decided the standards for digital TV, DAT, SACD, and DVD-audio disagree with you on the subject of sampling rates. If 44 kHz is adequate, then why go to the trouble of providing DVD-audio listeners with sound sampled at up to 192 kHz, which according to you doesn't sound any better?

You did mention that there are other factors that contribute to CDs sounding lousy, which is certainly true. All I really know is that I have a modestly priced record player and CD player, and the records are much more pleasing to listen to.

Incidentally, if "BS" stands for what I assume it does, you are being too cutting about some of those products in my opinion. Of those listed, the only items I consider to be bullsh*t are the Shakti electromagnetic stabilizer and the cable supports, which are indeed complete garbage. The Clearaudio and Judy Spotheim turntables are ludicrous in terms of appearance and cost, but undoubtedly produce highly impressive sound â€“ all completely free of aliasing. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad, that is quite a compelling and well written argument, which I enjoyed reading. As I said, I&#8217;m no audiophile, nor am I an audio expert. But I presume the people who decided the standards for digital TV, DAT, SACD, and DVD-audio disagree with you on the subject of sampling rates. If 44 kHz is adequate, then why go to the trouble of providing DVD-audio listeners with sound sampled at up to 192 kHz, which according to you doesn&#8217;t sound any better?</p>
<p>You did mention that there are other factors that contribute to CDs sounding lousy, which is certainly true. All I really know is that I have a modestly priced record player and CD player, and the records are much more pleasing to listen to.</p>
<p>Incidentally, if &#8220;BS&#8221; stands for what I assume it does, you are being too cutting about some of those products in my opinion. Of those listed, the only items I consider to be bullsh*t are the Shakti electromagnetic stabilizer and the cable supports, which are indeed complete garbage. The Clearaudio and Judy Spotheim turntables are ludicrous in terms of appearance and cost, but undoubtedly produce highly impressive sound â€“ all completely free of aliasing. :)</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Duryea</title>
		<link>http://isnoop.net/blog/2006/08/27/are-audiophiles-really-this-dumb/#comment-6566</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Duryea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 03:11:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://isnoop.net/blog/2006/08/27/are-audiophiles-really-this-dumb/#comment-6566</guid>
		<description>Great collection of BS products... But the previous comment has some inaccuracies I want to clear up.

Daniel said: "So a digital recording doesn't capture the whole sound wave; it approximates it with a series of steps. Sounds with quick transitions, like a human voice or a trumpet, are distorted because they change too quickly for the sample rate."

I'm sorry, but you have been misinformed. While it is true that digital recordings are approximations of the original, so to are the "moving" images you see in film and television merely an illusion of motion. The fact that they are approximations does not, in itself, imply a limitation.

The bandwidth of a CD is approximately 20 kHz (with a sampling rate of 44.1 kHz), which is also the approximate bandwidth of human hearing. This means the CD will capture content throughout the whole range of human hearing. There is no issue with the CD's sampling rate being incapable of reacting fast enough to transients that may be present in the human voice or a trumpet, or anything else for that matter. Anything you are physically capable of hearing, including transients, falls within that 20 kHz bandwidth and is therefore reproduceable on a CD. The science behind that is extremely clear and widely accepted. If you believe, however, that information above 20 kHz is important, then CD's will not deliver what you want. That is another issue entirely, anyway.

A real issue with digital technology, however, is the effective design and implementation of the circuits so that nonlinearities are kept at a minimum. Aliasing, for example, sounds very unpleasant and is still a reality with many (most?) modern digital devices. That, I suspect, is what most people hear when they complain about digital. However, it is not the principles behind digital technology that are the problem, nor are there problems inherent in the sampling rate of CD's.

Best regards,
Brad</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great collection of BS products&#8230; But the previous comment has some inaccuracies I want to clear up.</p>
<p>Daniel said: &#8220;So a digital recording doesn&#8217;t capture the whole sound wave; it approximates it with a series of steps. Sounds with quick transitions, like a human voice or a trumpet, are distorted because they change too quickly for the sample rate.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sorry, but you have been misinformed. While it is true that digital recordings are approximations of the original, so to are the &#8220;moving&#8221; images you see in film and television merely an illusion of motion. The fact that they are approximations does not, in itself, imply a limitation.</p>
<p>The bandwidth of a CD is approximately 20 kHz (with a sampling rate of 44.1 kHz), which is also the approximate bandwidth of human hearing. This means the CD will capture content throughout the whole range of human hearing. There is no issue with the CD&#8217;s sampling rate being incapable of reacting fast enough to transients that may be present in the human voice or a trumpet, or anything else for that matter. Anything you are physically capable of hearing, including transients, falls within that 20 kHz bandwidth and is therefore reproduceable on a CD. The science behind that is extremely clear and widely accepted. If you believe, however, that information above 20 kHz is important, then CD&#8217;s will not deliver what you want. That is another issue entirely, anyway.</p>
<p>A real issue with digital technology, however, is the effective design and implementation of the circuits so that nonlinearities are kept at a minimum. Aliasing, for example, sounds very unpleasant and is still a reality with many (most?) modern digital devices. That, I suspect, is what most people hear when they complain about digital. However, it is not the principles behind digital technology that are the problem, nor are there problems inherent in the sampling rate of CD&#8217;s.</p>
<p>Best regards,<br />
Brad</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://isnoop.net/blog/2006/08/27/are-audiophiles-really-this-dumb/#comment-5800</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Aug 2006 05:06:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://isnoop.net/blog/2006/08/27/are-audiophiles-really-this-dumb/#comment-5800</guid>
		<description>I'm not an audiophile, but I thought I'd respond to a few of your points:

I do consider vinyl to be superior to CD audio. The difference is that vinyl records are analogue recordings, and CDs are digital. A digital recording takes snapshots of the analogue signal at a certain rate (44 kHz for CDs) and measures each snapshot with a certain accuracy (for CDs it is 16-bit, which means the value must be one of 65,536 possible values.) So a digital recording doesn't capture the whole sound wave; it approximates it with a series of steps. Sounds with quick transitions, like a human voice or a trumpet, are distorted because they change too quickly for the sample rate. On the other hand, a record has a groove carved into it that mirrors the original soundwave, so no information is lost and you get a natural sound.

As for the equipment, obviously your remarks were in jest, but several of those products aren't that ridiculous. I think using conical feet to stop vibrations reaching audio equipment is fairly standard practice â€“ if you check the underside of your own hi-fi, I wouldn't be surprised if you discover a few magical cones. The same applies for the other damping devices (the black checkers.) Record clamps (white checkers) are relatively new: they flattens out warps, and couple LPs tightly to the platter to reduce resonance and susceptibility to ticks and pops, and are pretty common amongst vinyl fans. Damping electromagnetic interference also sounds a reasonable proposition, but I admit that the hunk of very expensive metal probably offers quite limited benefits.

You've spotted that it's possible to buy extremely expensive and ludicrous record players;  I wouldn't argue with that. I think that as you move up the audio equipment price range, the improvement in sound quality is ever more marginal. Upgrading your Â£200 micro system to a decent Â£1k hi-fi is well worth the investment if you like music. But it does seem to become an addiction for some people, who will fork out huge volumes of cash for a change in sound that almost nobody can detect. But then, for nearly every consumer item you can think of, from toothbrushes to automobiles, there is an ultra-expensive version of it for rich people. So I think I'd put put audiophiles into the same category as people who drive Maybach cars, and sit in avant-garde furniture/clothes. Sometimes rich people simply don't want to own the same products that the masses do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not an audiophile, but I thought I&#8217;d respond to a few of your points:</p>
<p>I do consider vinyl to be superior to CD audio. The difference is that vinyl records are analogue recordings, and CDs are digital. A digital recording takes snapshots of the analogue signal at a certain rate (44 kHz for CDs) and measures each snapshot with a certain accuracy (for CDs it is 16-bit, which means the value must be one of 65,536 possible values.) So a digital recording doesn&#8217;t capture the whole sound wave; it approximates it with a series of steps. Sounds with quick transitions, like a human voice or a trumpet, are distorted because they change too quickly for the sample rate. On the other hand, a record has a groove carved into it that mirrors the original soundwave, so no information is lost and you get a natural sound.</p>
<p>As for the equipment, obviously your remarks were in jest, but several of those products aren&#8217;t that ridiculous. I think using conical feet to stop vibrations reaching audio equipment is fairly standard practice â€“ if you check the underside of your own hi-fi, I wouldn&#8217;t be surprised if you discover a few magical cones. The same applies for the other damping devices (the black checkers.) Record clamps (white checkers) are relatively new: they flattens out warps, and couple LPs tightly to the platter to reduce resonance and susceptibility to ticks and pops, and are pretty common amongst vinyl fans. Damping electromagnetic interference also sounds a reasonable proposition, but I admit that the hunk of very expensive metal probably offers quite limited benefits.</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve spotted that it&#8217;s possible to buy extremely expensive and ludicrous record players;  I wouldn&#8217;t argue with that. I think that as you move up the audio equipment price range, the improvement in sound quality is ever more marginal. Upgrading your Â£200 micro system to a decent Â£1k hi-fi is well worth the investment if you like music. But it does seem to become an addiction for some people, who will fork out huge volumes of cash for a change in sound that almost nobody can detect. But then, for nearly every consumer item you can think of, from toothbrushes to automobiles, there is an ultra-expensive version of it for rich people. So I think I&#8217;d put put audiophiles into the same category as people who drive Maybach cars, and sit in avant-garde furniture/clothes. Sometimes rich people simply don&#8217;t want to own the same products that the masses do.</p>
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